Debunking Those who cherry picked Quotes of Srila Prabhupada
The following article is divided into 7 Parts in a mixed manner.
Points Explained in the answer:
- 1) The word “Rape” Had multiple meanings. During prabhupadas time the word "rape" was not so bad as it is now, Even new york times of that time said women love rape, which does not mean exactly what we know the definition of the word “Rape”.
- 2) Srila Prabhupada appears to be using the word “rape” in its context according to a dictionary meaning not in such common use in the twenty-first century.
- 3) The controversial Purport by prabhupad was on Srimad-Bhagavatam (4.25.41), however for better understanding, one should check it along with its context. There is no question of forceful sex in the scene described in SB 4.25.41–42.
- 4) other quotes and recorded incidents that indicate that Srila Prabhupada’s attitude toward rape (in the conventional meaning of the term) was complete disapproval and disgust.
- 5) The Final Blow. 3 Definitions of rape by prabhupad.
- 6) Short conclusion.
- 7) Objection raised, objection refuted. (QnA)
Explanation:
We find That controversial statement by Srila Prabhupad, In his commentary on Srimad-Bhagavatam (4.25.41) & In the next verse (4.25.42).
In Srimad-Bhagavatam (4.25.41) & In the next verse (4.25.42) we encounter the sentiments of a woman who is attracted by the charisma, beauty, wealth, and fame of a great hero. She expresses her attraction straightforwardly, and Srila Prabhupada observes in the purport: “[I]f a woman loves a man, that man appears very beautiful and magnanimous.” When there is such attraction, there will also generally be sexual attraction. When there is mutual sexual attraction, it is often found that a man will behave aggressively toward a woman, but that aggression is not unwelcome when the attraction is reciprocated. The woman will actually encourage the aggression.
We are not seeing the term “rape” being used in the ordinary sense here, since the aggression is welcomed in those verses. There is no question of nonconsensual sex. Srila Prabhupada appears to be using the word “rape,” in this context, according to a dictionary meaning not in such common use in the twenty-first century.
The controversial Purport by prabhupad was on Srimad-Bhagavatam (4.25.41), however for better understanding, one should check it along with its context.
In the next verse (4.25.42) we find in the Sanskrit The term ghrina-uddhata, meaning “aggressive mercy.”
In this verse, the woman is expressing her attraction even more openly: “O mighty-armed, who in this world will not be attracted by your arms, which are just like the bodies of serpents? Actually you relieve the distress of husbandless women like us by your attractive smile and your aggressive mercy. We think that you are traveling on the surface of the earth just to benefit us only.”
Aside from ghrina meaning “mercy” or “compassion,” which are not the primary meanings, the dictionary also defines it as “ardor,” “heat,” and the tenderness one feels when basking in the sun. Uddhata includes the ideas of pride, arrogance, but also excitement and agitation. The dictionary includes the idea of striking – as in a finger striking a lute. In this case the woman is considering the aggression of the man both welcome and merciful.
Srila Prabhupada appears to be using the word “rape,” in this context, according to a dictionary meaning not in such common use in the twenty-first century.
In many American English dictionaries the more unusual usages of “rape” are no longer found. However in British English dictionaries (with which Srila Prabhupada would have been more familiar) we do find alternate meanings.
For example, in the Chambers English Dictionary we find the following:
Rape räp, (noun) rapine, plunder, seizure (obsolete); unlawful sexual intercourse (by force) with another person without that person’s consent; violation, despoliation, – verb transitive to seize and carry off (obsolete); to commit rape upon; to ravish or transport, as with delight (obsolete); to violate, despoil. (adjective) rä’ping tearing prey (heraldry); ravishing, delighting (obsolete).
We can see that the standard meaning of “rape” is found here: “unlawful sexual intercourse (by force) with another person without that person’s consent.” But we also find other meanings. For example: “seizure” and “to ravish or transport, as with delight” and in the adjective form: “ravishing, delighting.”
Ordinarily these meanings are little used, or even considered obsolete, but since the sexual activity described in Srimad-Bhagavatam is consensual and not forcefully, we are bound to find a meaning that makes sense and that portrays Srila Prabhupada for what we know him to be: an absolutely moral person who could never advocate violence on an innocent and defenseless woman.
In the eighteenth century, the English poet Alexander Pope wrote a satirical poem called The Rape of the Lock, poking fun at a controversy in which a lover cut a lock of the heroine’s hair without her permission. In this sense, to “seize and carry off” would be the appropriate understanding of “rape,”
Srimad-Bhagavatam suggests another usage: “to ravish … with delight.” It is true that these usages are unusual, but they are certainly not unknown in the English language, even if considered obsolete in contemporary usage.
During prabhupadas time the word rape was not so bad as it is now Even new york times of that time said women love rape, which does not mean exactly what we know the definition of the word “Rape”, as the word rape had multiple meanings.
“In the United States, a husband could not be charged with raping his wife until 1979. In the 1950s, in some states in the US, a white woman having consensual sex (Not forcefully) with a black man was considered rape. Prior to the 1930s, rape was considered a sex crime that was always committed by men and always done to women. From 1935 to 1965, a shift from labeling rapists as criminals to believing them to be mentally ill "sexual psychopaths" began making its way into popular opinion. Men caught for committing rape were no longer sentenced to prison but admitted to mental health hospitals where they would be given medication for their illness. Because only men deemed insane were the ones considered to have committed rape, no one considered the everyday person to be capable of such violence.”
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape
Furthermore, there are other quotes and recorded incidents that indicate that Srila Prabhupada’s attitude toward rape (in the conventional meaning of the term) was complete disapproval and disgust. For example:
Intelligence is shown by self-control. The cats and dogs have no self-control. If a bull or a male cat or dog sees a female, immediately he will rape her, yet he will not be punished. But if a human being does that on the street, he will be arrested at once. The inclination to rape is there in both the animal and the human being, but a human being is supposed to control himself. Indeed, human life is meant for self-control. The more you control yourself, the more perfect a human being you become, and the more you allow your senses to run loose, the more of an animal you are. People do not know this. They want freedom, but in the name of freedom they are becoming animals. This is their so-called civilization. (Dharma—The Way of Transcendence, “The Sword of Remembrance”)
Srila Prabhupada: Therefore, they are fools. When a man’s lusty desire is very strong he commits what is called rape and he becomes implicated in criminal activities. Kama esha krodha esha rajo-guna-samudbhavah. Why one is forced to do that? The cause is lusty desires, anger, greediness. So we are thinking we are master of this material world, but actually you are servant of these desires, kama, krodha, lobha, moha. And that is maya. He is acting as servant, but he’s thinking, “I am master.” (Morning Walk, Philadelphia, July 14, 1975)
Srila Prabhupada went on, giving a Bengali saying to illuminate his point. “That is force; it is not prema. In Bengali it is said, ‘If you catch one girl or boy,’”—he assumed an aggressive countenance—“‘You love me, you love me, you love me.’ Is it love? ‘You love me, otherwise I will kill you.’” Everyone was laughing at his graphic depiction of so-called love. “Is that love? So Krsna does not want to become a lover like that, on the point of revolver, ‘You love me, otherwise I shall kill you.’ That is not love; that is threatening. Love is reciprocal, voluntary, good exchange of feeling. Then there is love. Not by force; that is rape.” (Hari Sauri’s Diary, vol. 3, July 7, 1976, Washington, D.C.)
And Finally, the final blow, lets see what Prabhupad meant with the definition of the word “Rape”
Definition #1: “Rape means without consent, sex. Otherwise there is no rape.”
Explanation: Here prabhupad clearly said, sex without consent is rape, otherwise there is no rape. But Prabhupad in other definition of the word rape said, sometimes the aggression is considered as rape which has been proven in this answer quite above
Definition #2 : “A man is always famous for his aggression toward a beautiful woman, and such aggression is sometimes considered rape.”
The whole answer in brief was an explanation of this definition along with others with clear understanding to the context where the controversial purports are written by prabhupad.
Definition #3: “When a husbandless woman is attacked by an aggressive man, she takes his action to be mercy.”
When we observe definition 2–3 we see rape can also be said to that sexual intercourse with consent but being aggressive, so prabhupads actual intentions are clear now.
as proven in answer, there was no question of force in the scene, still, Some people will or are already doing, misquote/ing this, without even being aware of the context, similar case with the statement “women love rape” Which has been cleared already. Dont worry, this wont have such a lengthy explanation but short and sweet. So….
Again here, if you read the context, you will understand that the woman in those verses of bhagwatam was trying to convince King Purañjana for sense gratification. Under the umbrella of grhasta, she was actually trying to convince him for grhmedi life, Prabhupad quotes and comments as follows on this scene:
Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam (7.9.45), yan maithunādi-gṛhamedhi-sukhaṁ hi tuccham. A householder who is too much addicted to pravṛtti-mārga is actually called a gṛhamedhī, not a gṛhastha. Although the gṛhastha desires sense gratification, he acts according to Vedic instructions. The gṛhamedhī, however, who is interested only in sense gratification, does not follow any Vedic instruction.
SB 4.25.39 — The woman continued: In this material world, a householder’s life brings all kinds of happiness in religion, economic development, sense gratification and the begetting of children, sons and grandsons. After that, one may desire liberation as well as material reputation. The householder can appreciate the results of sacrifices, which enable him to gain promotion to superior planetary systems. All this material happiness is practically unknown to the transcendentalists. They cannot even imagine such happiness.
SB 4.25.40 — The woman continued: According to authorities, the householder life is pleasing not only to oneself but to all the forefathers, demigods, great sages, saintly persons and everyone else. A householder life is thus beneficial.
SB 4.25.41 — O my dear hero, who in this world will not accept a husband like you? You are so famous, so magnanimous, so beautiful and so easily gotten.
SB 4.25.42 — O mighty-armed, who in this world will not be attracted by your arms, which are just like the bodies of serpents? Actually you relieve the distress of husbandless women like us by your attractive smile and your aggressive mercy. We think that you are traveling on the surface of the earth just to benefit us only.
SB 4.25.43 — The great sage Nārada continued: My dear King, those two — the man and the woman — supporting one another through mutual understanding, entered that city and enjoyed life for one hundred years.
SB 4.25.55 — Sometimes he used to go to his private home with one of his chief servants [the mind], who was named Viṣūcīna. At that time, illusion, satisfaction and happiness used to be produced from his wife and children.
SB 4.25.56 — Being thus entangled in different types of mental concoction and engaged in fruitive activities, King Purañjana came completely under the control of material intelligence and was thus cheated. Indeed, he used to fulfill all the desires of his wife, the Queen.
SB 4.25.57-61 — When the Queen drank liquor, King Purañjana also engaged in drinking. When the Queen dined, he used to dine with her, and when she chewed, King Purañjana used to chew along with her. When the Queen sang, he also sang. Similarly, when the Queen cried, he also cried, and when the Queen laughed, he also laughed. When the Queen talked loosely, he also talked loosely, and when the Queen walked, the King walked behind her. When the Queen would stand still, the King would also stand still, and when the Queen would lie down in bed, he would also follow and lie down with her. When the Queen sat, he would also sit, and when the Queen heard something, he would follow her to hear the same thing. When the Queen saw something, the King would also look at it, and when the Queen smelled something, the King would follow her to smell the same thing. When the Queen touched something, the King would also touch it, and when the dear Queen was lamenting, the poor King also had to follow her in lamentation. In the same way, when the Queen felt enjoyment, he also enjoyed, and when the Queen was satisfied, the King also felt satisfaction.
SB 4.25.62 — In this way, King Purañjana was captivated by his nice wife and was thus cheated. Indeed, he became cheated in his whole existence in the material world. Even against that poor foolish King’s desire, he remained under the control of his wife, just like a pet animal that dances according to the order of its master.
Conclusion: in these three types of intercourse, with consent and aggression, with consent but without aggression, without consent. The term rape is usually used for sex without consent but it is also used by prabhupad to sex with consent but aggressive.
When we observe definition 2–3 we see the term rape is said to that sexual intercourse with consent but being aggressive, so prabhupads actual intentions are clear now.
and older dictionaries also does for describing 2 types of them having aggression, of course sex without consent is aggressive, but the same can be applied to with consent, hence twisting prabhupads words is not logical because it is contradicting the context of bhagwatams description of the scene, grammer, his own variety of definition of rape, variety of definition of rape by other dictionaries and of those times. etc.
Objection!
But in other translations of bhagwatam we dont find anything such as "Aggressive mercy" In 4.25.42
Refutation: Just because othertranslators didn't translate it along with the term "Aggressive mercy" Doesn't mean Srila Prabhupada's word-to-word translation is wrong. Sanskrit can have multiple meanings.
For example this verse from the Mahabharata
केशवं पतितं दृष्ट्वा
पाण्डवा हर्षनिर्भराः ।
रुदन्ति कौरवास्सर्वे
हा हा केशव केशव ॥
Translation: Seeing the fallen keshava,
the paaNDava-s were filled with ecstasy
All the kaurava-s were crying
O keshava, O keshava!
Hmmm..., interesting scenario, isn't it?!! The paaNDava-s rejoicing whereas kaurava-s lamenting for keshava?!! Almost looks like the poet made a mistake in placing the words! (keshava is one of the many names of Lord kRuShNa. He was called so after he slayed a demon named keshi.)
Well, let's see some special words in the verse here -
केशव if split as के शव means
के (seventh case of कं shabda) - in the water
शव - cadaver (dead body)
dead body in the water
पा अण्डवाः
पा - water
अण्डवाः - those born from eggs
fish are born in the water from eggs
कौ रवाः
कौ - horrible
रवाः - noise
wolves/fox howl with a horrible cry
Now, the meaning becomes,
On seeing the cadaver fallen in the water, the fish were ecstatic (that was a feast for them) whereas the wolves were lamenting as they could not get a bite of the dead body in the water!
Actually, if we consider the logic that because other translators didn't translate the verse including "aggressive mercy" Hence Prabhupada's translation is wrong, then adi shankaracarya is also one among the worst translators. How? For example, his translation of Bhagawad Gita 11.15 Contradicts other Greatest acaryas lile Madhvacarya, Ramanunjacarya, the pioneers of Vedanta. Not only that, even Gita Press edition of Bhagawad Gita translation of 11.15 contradicts Adi Shankaracarya.
So you accept his translation is faulty? Huh!? You're trapped.
Objection!
So, Prabhupada meant what he said literally, that women are perverts who like it when a man who is very aggressive and good at intercourse . He wanted to convey this AS IT IS, so he inserted this “aggressive mercy” crap to spread his misogynistic thinking.
Refutation: It is not srila prabhupada who is trying to say that all women are like that. In the srimad bhagwatam itself, in the same chapter, as i have provided above skmewhere in the article, it proves that it is for those lusty women and not that every single woman is like that, according to the context, the women wanted to enjoy grhmedi instead of following grhasta. If one reads the article very nicely, then these objections will be observed ti be already refuted there.
Objection!
But According to Prabhupada, he very clearly knew what does rape mean.
" a man is always famous for his aggression toward a beautiful woman, and such aggression is sometimes considered rape. Although rape is not legally allowed, it is a fact that a woman likes a man who is very expert at rape."
Refutation: This objection has been already refuted in the " Final blow, definition of rape by prabhupada " Section of the article, still i would like to explain it with some more additions.
It is not shocking to see prabhupada contradicting himself, he sometimes had said that jivas fall from vaikuntha, sometimes he said they don't, and so and so forth.
So similarly here his definition 2 & 3 contradict definition 1 in which he clearly said, rape means sex without consent, otherwise there is no rape. So the point is to reconcile the two appearing contradictions instead of cherry picking his quotes.
For example:
Bharadvaja Samhita 1.42
Women can never become Diksha guru, Women can become siksha gurus and can instruct about good and bad, but can never take the post of initiating spiritual master. (Loosely translated but the meaning is correct)
So here it appears as if women are forbidden to become diksha gurus. But just after 1 verse the same scripture says...
Bharadvaja samhita 1.44--
One who is fully perfect in krishna consciousness, directly perceiving god face to face, can become diksha gurus regardless of gender, varna, family, etc.
So here it says anyone can become a diksha guru, irrespective of that persons gender.
So from such appearing so-called contradictions, if anyone plucks only one verse and shows to the public, he will be successful to fool the mass of people, but one should always check them along with the context.
So out of curiosity, if anyone wants to know the conclusion of these two so called contradicting statement of the scripture regarding the diksha guru, can see this video as i am not explaining it because of it being out of topic.
https://youtu.be/W86wyJO86j0
Thanks for your scholarly presentation clearing up the foggy matter. I presume Srila Prabhupada is very pleased.
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